An Open Letter to HubPages Evangelists
71
Walk like Jesus, don't JUST talk like him.
I discovered HubPages about three months ago. I happened to stumble upon the site while looking for something else on Google. I signed up almost immediately after discovering that it was a site where writers could publish for free about virtually any topic in the world. I had considered a blog. Actually, I’ll confess that I have indeed started a blog since coming here, but my reasons for creating a blog are very different than my reasons for publishing at HP.
While there is a Religion and Philosophy topic section here at HP, I want to take this time to make it very clear that I do not publish in that topic section with any desire or intention of converting anyone, and it tends to annoy me when others do. I realize that there is a commission from Christ to spread the Word to everyone to whom you are able. And, as a Christian, I realize that I am under that commission. What I feel about spreading the Word, however, is that it should be done through the way one lives one’s life, not necessarily through the written word on a secular writing site.
Please do not misunderstand my intentions. I have written more than one piece on HP that is Christian in orientation, but they have been written and addressed primarily to other believers with the intention of encouraging them in their daily Christian life, not with the intention of converting those who do not believe . I am aware that there are those who sit on the fence, and may choose to get off on one side or another after reading one of those pieces, but my intention is, again, not to convert.
What's the use in FIGHTING?
Living a Christian life is tough, to say the least. Following in the steps of Christ can be very hard when others strike at you, either literally or figuratively. I can honestly tell you that I encounter enough strikes in my daily life away from HP that I do not wish to encounter those same strikes because of a piece I’ve written here, or because of a forum topic that I’ve chosen to post.
Others of you, though, seem to believe that there are so many lost souls on HP that you have no option for evangelism other than what you see here. Really? Come now, are you all shut-ins? Can you not leave your homes and go on mission trips or visitations with your churches to evangelize? If that is the case, you should be writing tracts, or books and articles that encourage your fellow Christians. I can’t possibly see it as your mission to throw up forum post after forum post to begin “conversations” about Jesus in the hope that you will convert others (especially those who don’t even believe in God) to Christians who are suddenly on fire for Jesus.
There are those of you who read this hub who will label me a lukewarm Christian, and say that I am neglecting my commission to spread the gospel. But, that is in no way correct. I choose to spread the Gospel through the way I live . Jesus said very clearly to us that we are to, [emphasis mine] “DO to others what you would have them do to you…Love your enemy and DO good; lend without expecting repayment…Be compassionate as your Father is compassionate. DO not judge and you will not be judged. DO not condemn and you will not be condemned. PARDON and you shall be pardoned.” Luke 6:31,35-37
Did you come to write or to evangelize?
We cannot truly know what is going on behind the screen of every person who throws up an article here at HP. Guess what? Many of us don’t want to. It is not right, however, for us to treat HP like it is a great mission field, or even to treat ourselves like we are the great evangelists who are going to clean it up. We’re not Carmen, this is not New Orleans, and most of us have not been given some amazing vision by God where we were told to evangelize HP into a Christian site.
We may write Christian pieces here on HP, but this is not a Christian site. This does not make it an evil site; it simply makes it a secular site. Contrary to what you may have been (or are being) taught, secular does not immediately equate with evil. Secular does not immediately mean that we need run away from it, or convert it to what we think Christian means.
It seems to me also that there are far too many of you here at HP who really and truly desire to beat the truth into others. There are far too many who have almost a warlike mentality about sharing your faith. What is that about? Where did Jesus tell you in Scripture to draw a line in the sand and that those who listened to what you said would be the ones saved and the ones to go to Heaven? I find this frustrating and a little frightening. The same individuals among you, who would condemn Harold Camping for choosing a date for the rapture you believe in, are also the first to tell people that no one but you has it right when it comes to the interpretation of Scripture, or anything else that has to do with our Christian faith.
A final word from a fellow Christian - WRITE something. Ignore the forums for a while.
I can hear several of you right this minute getting very upset. You may be thinking that you, in fact, hold the monopoly on “true” or “real” Christianity. Well, you certainly wouldn’t be the first in the last 2000+ years to think that, and you wouldn’t be the first to try to argue your way into making it the truth. The absolute truth of the matter is that since Jesus came, we have been splintered into sects. Judaism in His time was torn apart into God knows how many sects, and almost as soon as Jesus ascended into Heaven, Peter and Paul started to split Christianity the same way. You may not like to see it there in black and white, but it is truth, and if nothing else, Christians should not shy away from truth.
If your goal is to hone your writing skills for the sake of Christian encouragement, by all means, I feel that you should continue to do so! Be prepared, though, for the fact that many writers are in the process of picking God apart, and examining religion to find if there is any truth in any of it. For you to shove one particular belief in their face is something they might generally find angering and offensive.
What is the sense in continuing to fight with someone to convert them to belief in Christ? I can tell you this: in all honesty, I did not come to faith in Christ until the believers in my life stepped back, stopped throwing Scripture in my face, and allowed the Holy Spirit to work in me. It was only then that I began to recognize Christ as the Way, the Truth, and the Life. And, it was only then that I began to truly desire to know Him. And, now, the Jesus I know wouldn’t want us to waste time trying to evangelize through weak and watery words on a website. He would want us to DO what He told us to DO and wait until people ask why and take that opportunity to tell them about WHO is the reason for what we do.
I realize that writing this hub and categorizing it the way I do will most certainly stir up a pot and lead to comments from folks who eagerly and vehemently disagree with me, but that’s okay, because my intention is to begin a conversation. And, the question with which I wish to begin is this: Do you really see HP as a mission field? How many atheists and ignostics have you encountered already but you still find yourself unable to see the futility of attempting to convert others in this particular locale? How long before you give up the fight, stop trying as a prophet to be recognized here, shake the dust from your feet and move on the way Jesus told us? Stop thumping your Bible, convinced that you can make every ostrich pull his head out of the sand. You might even want to step back and make sure that you are not the ostrich with YOUR head in the sand.
YES, we are called to walk like Jesus and to talk like Him. But, there’s no sense in talking like Him if no one wants to listen!
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I understand, Kat! It gets frustrating to see that people are as guilty of it online as they are in real life, you know what I mean? If a person looks blatantly at me in real life and says, "I don't want to hear it," then I stop telling them. They'll learn a helluva lot more from how I treat them in the long run than from what I have to say, in my opinion.
yes!
Thanks, stclairjack. You need say nothing else!
Yep, know exactly what ya mean! Does this mean are Detroit roots got rotted? LOL! (Oh I like that 8 ball avi, cool) :)
Nah, my Detroit roots will never rot! I'm not there just because of the financial situation there and because the city itself is starting to rot. If the Illitches would do to the whole city what they've done to Fox Theatre and that whole area, I'd come back in a minute. And, I worked for them for almost two years. They've got the money to do it!
Amen sista!!!! I usually don't voice my religious views... it isn't a topic that I like to discuss. It is probably because as a hairstylist it was beat over our head that it was off limits. It is something that makes people uncomfortable, therefore it is one of those topics against our codes that we are unable to talk to our clients about. It is a debated topic. But, I will have to say... there is one thing I absolutely hate... it is being pounded over the head with someone elses Bible. That being said, it isn't that I won't listen to what others have to say, but I have my own beliefs and don't want to be converted to what others think. I was raised a Catholic and because of the Army I am a religious mix. As long as we all have something to believe in, that is enough for me. It is our own soul we should be responsible for saving, not that of every person out there beating the pavement!
Well written... I wish more people thought of religion the way you did!
Great hub MO. I was raised in my early years by an atheist - but he made us go to church and learn the different religions. We were supposed to decide what we believed on our own. For that reason I saw it as a subject to be learned. My grandfathers belief was that you can't decide or believe in anything unless you've been educated about that subject.
Regardless of what I believe I'm all aware that most people are born into a religion and they stay in it. It's ingrained for many - not all. People tend to be followers in that way. I always looked at it like I was going to get a pop quiz from Gramps and I'd better have been paying attention! You all have your rules ya know, like with regard to dancing, singing, drinking alcohol, snakes, ya know:). Anyway - I wouldn't ask anyone to believe what I believe - I want them to find that out on their own too:)
BBG, you'd be amazed because these folks here at HubPages don't like the way I look at religion, and they get frustrated with me just the way they get frustrated with the atheists and ignostics. The funny thing thing too is that I am a very convicted believer. You're absolutely right though. I think prayer is an absolute necessity, and I'll pray for anyone who asks (and anyone who doesn't...lol) but if they don't ask about religion, I'm not going to shove it down their throat! :-) Glad you enjoyed!
You worked at the Fox?? I LOVED THAT PLACE!! That little restaurant across from it, YUM! Did you work there when Brian Setzer played? What a great place for shows, everything is so ornate! Yeah I'm one of the people who refuse to believe they have no money. I grew up in Oakland Co. for the most part of my life on the lake so, I don't see no money!! When I worked in Walled lake, people just didn't want to do the jobs but there's 10 on every block! Not one of my friends up there is jobless! Not one! And my friends band is getting played on the RIF all the time, so super happy about that! Riiight, so who don't have money, but can go to shows! :) The problem is people aren't willing to live beneath their means! LOL That's ANOTHER reason I moved! (Told ya I had a lot of reasons) :) Well, the churches are pretty LOL!!!! :)
I have seen some very heated debates on here... usually I read and leave peacefully... lol! My mother in law is very religious and she tries to preach to everybody. We have a friend who is a atheist... he tries to preach to everybody on how there is no such thing as a God. These two get into it all the time... it is funny to watch! I am probably going to hell for that... lol
You know, Real, I think that's why I may think differently than others do. I was NOT raised in a specific faith. I found my way to faith as an adult and came to my truth after finding my way to faith. I am the kind of person who picks EVERYTHING apart. I'm not one who can be easily indoctrinated into believing in anything. I ask why more than the average 4 year old...lol But, I feel that people should also be allowed to find their own way to God. Not that I won't teach my children what I believe, but I'm also going to teach my children what their dad believes, and that's different. They'll be given the same chances I will. Thanks for reading and responding. You know how much I love you guys!
Kat, I didn't work at the Fox, but I did work for the Illitches. They're VERY good people. And, by the time I went to work for them, Hockeytown Bar & Grill was across from the Fox. :-)
I refuse to do much talking about religion with anyone that I don't already know a bit about. Absolutely NOTHING in this world will turn someone off faster than someone going up to a total stranger and saying something like,
"have you dedicated your life to Jesus Christ?"
I'm sorry - I'll run from anyone that acts like that. Most of my close friends are either atheist, some sort of pantheist, or Buddhist. I'm the few and far between Christian LIKE person.
I refuse to be called "Christian" in most groups - because I'm actually very ashamed of What so called "Christians" have done to Americas education system (so sorry, and allegory is an allegory - and evolution is a fact) . . .and most especially, these so called "Christians" who think it's cool to drop bombs all of Islamic lands, and/or the numbskull violence and warmongering so called "Christians" that carry on with their fights against persons who seek abortions, are homosexual, or use drugs.
So unwilling to forgive anyone but themselves - so VERY un Christ Like.
I'm down with the Gandhi Quote "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."
That guy was more Christian than american's so called "Christians" - by and large.
I love the Ghandi quote because he was absolutely right. I'm trying really hard to be like my Christ. And, I'm so glad you read the Rich Mullins hub. He was another one who was trying to be like Christ. THANKS for reading and commenting. :-)
That must be the place we had those yummy chicken tenders before the show! I loved that place!
My parents never stuck to one religion either, and I went to private school in Jr. high, all faiths were there, so nobody could judge nobody!
There is this neighbor lady who keeps putting papers in my door and I keep telling her to STOP IT.. she said "I don't live the lords way" I'm thinkn'.. she's never even spoke to me so HOW'S SHE KNOW! I might bonk her in the head with my iron cross next time she comes over here! lol j/k heh
Hey, Kat, you gotta do what you gotta do. Those are the kind of people I'm talking about. Listen to the folks who tell you they aren't interested. And, do you think you're earning a point per conversion? That isn't the way it works, yanno?
So many Christians become fodder for people who just want to argue and distract. I seldom visit the forums. When I am led to make a comment, I let it be known this is my only statement on the matter and I will not be quarrel back and forth. I certainly pray my behavior and love show I am a believer and follower of Christ. After all He said they will know us by our love for one another. He never mentioned preaching and trolling back and forth. Thanks for a great Hub Mo.
I try to do the same thing, hyphenbird. When it comes down to it, I see the trolls and try not to bite back. It saddens me when the trolls are our brothers and sisters in Christ. I think praying and being wise about what we share (IF we share it) is what makes the difference here, and what makes the biggest difference is how we ACT - what we DO.
You, Motown, are the best advert for Christian faith and behaviour. I will never be convinced of anything by lunatics, or indeed anyone who is so sure they are right - if anything it makes more more determined to go against them.
Knowing there are perfectly reasonable Christians in the world, who actually seem able to act like normal people - it gives me some faith in human nature, if not in the actual God thing itself.
I applaud you for just being you basically.
Great hub and wriitng, and all that by thy way.
great read. Not something i would usually read, but the passion you painted here is wonderful. up and useful
I am in awe and have much respect for you writing this hub..I for one cringe when I see so called Christians arguing and battling back and forth..just makes us all look a little "wacko" as my sweet friend says..Thank you..it is in how we live..not up to us to hit someone over the head and drag them to the alter..I know it is way to big of job for me..love is the answer..kindness...and leave the rest to the all knowing God.
Sunnie
Voted up. ;) From the comments it looks like you are in the majority.
To me, religion is a personal thing. Everyone in a modern democratic society of mixed faiths is protected by a separation of church and state, and a bill or charter of rights and freedoms that apply to all. Everyone has a right to their opinion and everyone has a right to ignore the opinion of others. But that means we have no right to force our opinions on others, and particularly not through law.
Fundamentalists need to stop trying to change the laws of the land and take away freedoms from those who do not believe as they do. After all, secular society and separation of church and state was instituted by religious people who saw a need for ultimate tolerance in matters of belief and faith. Not only is secularism not evil. It's a mostly Christian creation and a damn good idea.
Atheists have no quarrel with the moderate Christian majority. We have a problem with anyone trying to take our rights and freedoms from us, just as most people do. That's why the forums are often heated and not really a place for moderate Christians. The atheist these days attacks all Christians as if they are fundamentalists. It may not be fair, but's the problem with war: It seldom is fair and there is always heavy collateral damage.
We may be atheist or Christian or Jew or Muslim or Buddhist or Pantheist. But above all we are all human beings first. We all have the same basic needs and desires. We all need the same kinds of freedoms to be allowed to be creative and believe what we like, or nothing at all. We can build tolerance by making laws according to our human needs instead of according to a specific sect's beliefs. That's the only way to peace in a multi cultural society. The fundamentalists should buy an island and rule themselves as a theocracy. The problem is they still wouldn't leave the rest of us alone. They never got the memo.
The call to spread the "Good News" made sense when no one but a select few knew what it was. But please, we have all heard it a thousand times now. The memo should have read: It's not news anymore. Now all that is being evangelized are the beliefs of the specific sects that feel they above all other Christians have the truth and everyone who doesn't believe them is going to hell.
That wasn't the good news. I think that's the problem. Jesus isn't here to tell everyone the job's already been done and they are all flogging a dead horse. They keep reading a note on the fridge that was written 2000 years ago and acting like it was written today.
He didn't say convert everyone at all costs. He said spread the word. Mission accomplished. I'm sure an evangelist can count on one hand the number of people he or she has asked whether or not they heard the good news who in all honesty have said no. If they want to know more they will ask you. Rest assured.
I note that one of the people who replied to this hub said they were raised by atheists who sent them out to explore different churches and faiths, just in case one might appeal to them. Believe it or not, it's not uncommon.
Yes we can all get along. We just need to stick to some basic rules. Keep our personal beliefs to ourselves and concentrate on what is best for us all. What's best for us all is to have to have as much freedom as possible so we can all continue to explore the truth for ourselves. The only restriction to our freedom being that just because because we do not avail ourselves of certain rights (like abortion or being gay) we have no right to stop others from being who they are or from believing what they believe. And our freedom means we do not have the right to do harm, as we do not want harm done to us.
Peace. ;)
Mark, I think you may have brought a tear to my eye - Look: :'-( In all sincerity, I thank you. Most of us are average folks who try like crazy to live like Jesus did. And, some of us even have decent writing skills. Thanks, as always, for stopping by. Hope to see you back soon! And, if this helps to push you any closer to the god thing, I'm good with that. ;-)
JadedLove, I'm grateful that you did read it and find it useful! Thanks so much for stopping in and for the very gracious comments. Hope to see you back soon! I write on a wide variety of topics, btw. :-)
Amen to that, my Sunnie sister! I see far too many of us fighting for no reason not just with each other, but with others who don't even care what we have to say! That seems like such a waste to me, when we could be living our lives well and praying for everyone and letting God do what He does best. Not to mention, it really does just alienate people...that's what saddens me. Have a wonderful and blessed day, my dear!
Peace to you as well, Slarty. I agree with you, wholeheartedly - which isn't unusual for us two (who believe so differently about God's existence). But, that's almost what I'm talking about - if you stop beating people to try to get them to embrace YOUR beliefs, it's amazing what brilliant dialogue begins. And, like you said, we are human before all else. And, HOLY HELL!
Brother, you just stated something I've always known but that didn't really sink in till just this moment.
"After all, secular society and separation of church and state was instituted by religious people who saw a need for ultimate tolerance in matters of belief and faith. Not only is secularism not evil. It's a mostly Christian creation and a damn good idea."
I argue all the time that the U.S. is not and was never intended to be a "Christian" nation. While the founding fathers were believers in God (obvious from the wording of our DOI) few, if any of them, held fundy Christian beliefs. If they did, they still agreed on the wording of the document and they still agreed on the First Amendment when it was put up - FOR A REASON.
Thanks to bringing that to our attention, I appreciate it.
What RealHousewife said is actually, interesting enough, almost true of me as well. I was not raised by atheists, but I had no "direction" toward or within my spirituality until I was an adult and had chosen for myself.
Thank you for commenting. I think someday, you and I should write a hub (or given how long winded we both are, a series of them) together!
Much love as always!
Also, MO - I am American Indian - I believe they had religious practices here even before the "founding" fathers;) seems when Christianity came about - it may not have been the saving grace for the people who already lived in America. Just gotta say it.....:)
Oh, in our American history that's for sure! That's one of the things I respect about the Catholic Church NOW...I don't know how other churches behave as missionaries...but the Catholic Church is very careful to integrate as much of the native culture (including religion if possible) as they can.
The greedy first Americans who included Catholics, but were mostly Protestant (at least on the WHITE side, not the Spanish side) did not do that originally for the Native Americans, which is really sad.
And Native American religious practices in the past few years have begun to be woven into Catholic practices in the western part of the US wherever they don't contradict Christianity...so there's an attempt there to integrate and become brothers. Sadly, Native Americans are the ones who have realized from the beginning that we are ALL brothers and sisters.
GREAT comment, Real, y'all keep 'em comin'!
Aww your so sweet MO! I just think Religion is very interesting. I even loved studying Theology in school - it is such a powerful facet of everyone's lives - believe or not - it is a critical judging point from almost everyone's point of view. Really, in every culture - this is a strong point. Keep the great hubs coming too MO!
Thanks, Motown. I think it is a very basic point that fundamentalists don't get. They are allowed to believe what they do because laws protect them. The same laws they want to abolish or erode. But they are not happy just being allowed to believe what they believe, they want to force us all to believe the same thing. That's the kind of thinking that leads to war. Look at the Muslim world today. Where there is fundamentalism, intolerance, and oppression there is war.
Contrary to popular belief among American fundamentalists, secularism is not atheism. Atheists had nothing to so with it. We are a minority which is not organized and had no power or even consideration when these things were decided.
The fathers of the US knew full well what religion does to politics, as they knew the Puritans had been oppressed by England and they knew the problems that caused. They also knew they were a country of immigrants who were there together to build a nation. All of them having different beliefs. If they were intolerant, they knew they were heading for trouble.
The US's separation of church and state law was at one time the envy of the world. It has been implemented in various forms, everywhere.
Canada implemented it only in the late 1950s because the JWs were being persecuted by the Catholic Church in Quebec through the provincial government of the day.
Even though not many Canadians agreed with the ideas of the JWs and resented their constant visits at all hours, they didn't want to see them arrested and beaten for the practice.
The fed used the British North America act and anti discrimination laws to create separation, and rule the Quebec government's conduct illegal. Shortly after that Quebec went through the "Quiet Revolution" and shook it's dependence on Catholic authority. Once the most devout catholic society, they became disenchanted with it. It wouldn't be until the 1980s that we would get our Charter of Rights and Freedoms along with the repatriation of our constitution. It really is the most progressive Charter of freedoms in the world today.
So it baffles us that the US requires its politicians to be religious, and specifically some kind of Christian.
It baffles us that the nation that was once the freest in the world has the highest population of fundamentalist Christians who want to destroy the very freedoms that allow them to exist. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
But that is the danger of Fundamentalism. Like the scorpion on the back of a monkey trying to cross a river, it is in the Fundamentalists nature to sting and consequently drown everyone.
But only when they have not experienced oppression themselves. The JW's in Canada were the most vocal lobbyists for a permanent constitutional separation. There are few more fundamentalist than the JW.
So I don't know how the US can solve their problem, and it is not my place to say. But I will do my level best to see that it doesn't spread over the boarder. ;) I'm sure most of my fellow Canadians, Christian and not, will be doing the same.
Perhaps some day we will write a hub together. But even though we both have have the sane general approach, that might be tricky. Depends on the topic, of course. ;)
Thank you so much, Real! I agree. For most of us religion is the fulcrum that our teeter-totter life board balances on. For those for whom it isn't, it can still be a fascination. And thanks for the kind words...I keep trying to make them interesting, if nothing else.
Enjoyed reading your hub and your follower's comments. Love the bio too. I had not visited there for a while. Clever! I would not have expected anything else!
Hiya, Truckstop Sally, I'm so excited that you stopped by! I did a little spring cleaning on my profile (with Stan's approval of course), and I'm glad that you liked it. Also thrilled that you stopped by to read this hub. It was a little bit of a rant for me, but it's also been a great conversation starter - which was ultimately my point, as I said. Thanks again for stopping by, and can't wait to see you back! :-)
Motown
"but the Catholic Church is very careful to integrate as much of the native culture (including religion if possible) as they can."
It's funny you should put it that way. You paint the tradition is a good light and in a sense it is. But it is the Roman tradition. It mixed the religions of those it conquered with their own so as to better integrate those societies. They used religion to rule. I've always seen the Catholic practice of integration as being an extension of that.
This whole idea of missionaries is a problem as far as I am concerned, no matter which religion went out to educate the heathens. It always amazes me that the oppressed are so willing to take on the religion of their oppressor. Were I native I wouldn't become Christian on principal.
So it astounds me that former American slaves are some of the most devout Christians. The slaves of the Dominican Republic threw out the Spanish masters and were the first of the islands to gain freedom. They all had religions previous to Christianity but the island is predominantly Christian. Of course we can say the same of all those oppressed by Rome all through Europe. They all had their own religions previous to conquest and yet took on the religion of their conquerer.
It is as if as well as conquering the people, the god of the oppressor conquered the gods of the conquered. And to make sure it doesn't happen again, taking on that god or those gods, will protect them from future conquests, and perhaps make the present one less confrontational.
I know your opinion differs, of course. ;) But I had to point out that there are several ways to look at what churches do, why they do it, and the results.
Hiya again, Slarty.
Oh, my friend...lol Rarely do you say anything that gets me up in arms, but you pushed the button with this:
"So it baffles us that the US requires its politicians to be religious, and specifically some kind of Christian."
I want to kindly point out that the US has 50 SOVEREIGN states. I don't know if each of your provinces has a sovereign government the way our states do.
If not, then what is true for Canada at a National level may very well NOT be true on a Provincial level. I'm guessing that is the case, given the information you provided about Quebec.
It is incorrect (and a bit unfair) to make blanket statements such as this one about the US and its people if you are unfamiliar with the US governmental structure. Let me share an example - On the Federal level, alcohol sales are LEGAL, but there are still many states in the US that have dry counties (where alcohol may NOT be sold according to their laws). Alaska happens to be one of those states.
On a Federal level, Marijuana sale, possession, and consumption is NOT legal, but there are a small number of states in the US where it IS legal - if nothing else, for medicinal purposes.
On a Federal level, marriage between homosexual partners is NOT legal, but there are a small number of states that have made it legal.
Keep in mind that we have many more states than Canada has provinces. Yes, some of those states have made laws that are different from the Federal laws. For example, in SOME STATES, it is required that to run for public office, an individual must be a Christian.
Trust me, though, the average mainline Christian does not believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to be Christian in orientation, but Mitt Romney ran for the presidential nomination in 2008.
The US has only two requirements for its president, at least. You need only be a natural born citizen and over the age of 35. That doesn't fit into the blanket statement that was made in your comment.
It's no wonder the US is misunderstood, when there are entire nations the size of Canada who are so unfamiliar with the governmental structure of its nearest neighbor.
As to keeping it from crossing your borders, that's an interesting statement for you to have made. You may rest assured that the average American feels the same away about virtually all things Canadian, primarily out the ass taxes and free health care.
Now, I have an aunt in BC who is a dual Canadian/American citizen. She is a great lover of the land in Canada - and we have very different political ideals. BUT, did you know she had to DELIBERATELY cultivate a Canadian accent when she moved there, because she taught English? Wanna know why? Because the freedom loving and open minded Canadian folk didn't want "some damn Yank" teaching their kids English.
So, perhaps we ought all open our minds and hearts a bit and LEARN about each other before we make assumptions and blanket statements. And, you did say that our separation of Church and State used to be the envy of others around the world? I would assume that included Canada. I would also assume that your Charter of Freedoms is something akin to our Bill of Rights. Interesting.
We did it 200 years ago. ;-)
Slarty, I'm going to post my quote from your comment here..."but the Catholic Church is very careful to integrate as much of the native culture (including religion if possible) as they can."
Note that I used the word IS, and there is a reason for that. I am not going to say that this has always been the case. I am saying that through much dialogue and through TRYING to keep an open mind over the centuries, the Church has learned that its missionary tactics and motivations in the past have not always been right or decent. They have changed. I do not argue the point that in the past, religion has been used to oppress. I do argue that the Catholic Church is truly oppressing anyone today (in terms of government or missionary work).
Well I'm happy to have ruffled your feathers for once. lol..
In fact I do know it is not required by law that your president must be religious. But it is required by most of those who vote for them. ;) You hear that sort of commentary from CNN during elections. They wouldn't lie to us would they? ;)
When asked in a poll if Americans would vote for an atheist as president, can you guess how many say yes? We need some one to look up the exact figures. But as I recall it was less than 20 percent.
The laws may not prohibit something but the people might. You are pretty evenly split between democrat and republican down there. Remember that the Republicans are in the pockets of the fundies and big business.
And yes I know about state vs fed. While the provinces are not completely sovereign they do have sovereign rights on many non-constitutional issues.
Remember that all our former conservative parties have all been more liberal minded than your democrates. lol...
As for the Catholic Church, it can do nothing now but be more conciliatory now hat it has no more power in politics. I find their turn about, while laudable in and of itself, a bit cynical. Give them power again and what would they do? Continue being conciliatory? Or start another inquisition?
Of course give any denomination power and it would end up the same way. It's the nature of the beast. The way Judaism and Christianity mixed made it unavoidable.
But ok. The past is the past and it's a new day. Give credit where credit is due. They aren't doing it now. But they are not to be trusted!!!! lol...
Oh yeah? You're damn right the good people of BC don't need no American to tell them how to say Z. It's Zed, not Zee!! Sesame Street be damned! lol...
HAHAHA! Yes, you sure did ruffle my feathers, but expressing myself has smoothed them again. And, THAT my dear, is what I love about our back and forths. I find it very easy to get ruffled/smoothed about what you may have to say, but I know the communication will ALWAYS be smooth. I am in a bit of agreement about giving any religion any sort of political power.
I had to laugh at the forum post about separating religion from politics and whether or not it should be done. All I could think of as an answer was, "Well...duh...that law already exists."
Even I say it's Zed - I have seen Shaun of the Dead, you know. AND, btw, you've got red on you.
:P
Timely hub that needed to written. Concise and to the point. Brilliant!
A.A., thank you so much! I'm grateful that there are others out there who feel the same.
Proof of your hubs exactness, all the comments you have received on it...lol I know what you mean, answered a question in one of the spiritual sections and was berated by a gentleman who thought, and I quote " would burn in hell for my ignorance" not long after I joined HP. I almost deleted my profile and got out, glad I didn't because I've met some awesome friends on here (like Mo2Chi). The question I answered (if you were wondering) was if (I) believed in angels, (I) said yes. I have seen that dude's profile a couple times since and I try to avoid. Hey Mo wonder what he would have had to say about "Stripping for Jesus". lol You get 'em girl, I've always got your back...Voted up, useful, awesome and beautiful just like you...W
Thank you, Walt! You always swell my head just a little and make me feel like such an awesome person! I'm so grateful to have met you here, and I'm THRILLED that you didn't delete your profile and get out. Don't let anyone ever bully you into being something that you're not or into stopping yourself from being who you are. You are exactly who God has made you to be. There is no need to apologize for that or hold it back! Thank you for all the feedback and the blessing of still reading my ramblings.
“I had to laugh at the forum post about separating religion from politics and whether or not it should be done. All I could think of as an answer was, "Well...duh...that law already exists."
Not sure I can agree with you on that, Mo. (That’s a bit unexpected isn’t it? For both of us.)
I think there’s an enormous distinction between what US law says, and what US politicians say. As in, they’ll say whatever they think the greatest number of voters want to hear. And, from the outside looking in, it seems to me that a majority of contemporary American voters want / need / demand to hear their politicians espouse a belief in God. Especially in the case of the President, who must not only state that belief, but overtly demonstrate it. Go to church, and be seen to do so. Say ‘God Bless America’ like he (maybe she, one day...) implicitly ‘knows’ that if God is looking out for any country in particular, America is that country. And why not, the American public says, after all, doesn’t the US uniquely proclaim to have “God on our side”.
And as well, even more importantly, in these days of the US engaged in a war against a fundamentalist foe whose main reason for waging it is to promote their alternative religion, it’s an integral part of the President’s job to reinforce the belief of many in ‘the home of the brave and the land of the free”, that US external policy equates to the ‘God-given right’ to do whatever is in the best interests of the US, wherever in the world that may be. The belief appears to be that God prefers democracy, even imposed democracy (?), and God wants America to bring it on.
Although (as an atheist) I don’t understand the subtle differences between the various types of Christian religions, I assume you’re as aware as I am of the proselytising by Christian missionaries that is taking place right now (and has done since the US-led invasion) in Iraq. First the bombs, then the Bible. Just as it was during the days of Manifest Destiny, when legislation was created to allow white settlers arriving in America to feel more comfortable stealing the land, the rights and the lives of the Native Indian people, based on the ‘God-given right’ to do so, enshrined in that legislation.
My point after all that Mo, is that words are the most powerful weapon of all, and the inflammatory and inappropriate use of words of religion, in times of war, have been, and still are responsible for the unnecessary deaths of thousands. George Bush used such wrong words frequently during his administration, and people are still paying with their lives. I know it seems like I’ve got a bit of a thing about this, but I recently posted a hub about the whole topic, motivated by the Geronimo / bin Laden mission naming fiasco, which I see as yet another example of unnecessary conflict being created by the lack of regard by politicians and Presidents, for the implicit nuances that are always present beneath the literal meaning of the words they so carelessly choose, eg George Bush proclaiming a Crusade, and inadvertently I’m sure, broadening the War on Terror into the perception of a Christian War against Muslims. If you have time to take a look, I think you might be disappointed at the truth of what I’m saying...
But, as my wife’s grandmother used to say, whenever friends felt passionately differently; “It’s a broad subject.” So this is a discussion, not an argument. I’m engaging in with you here :-)
Good on you, Mo.
There needs to be little comment boxes by each persons post so like the "like's" on FB or "yer an ass" lol..
Since, let's see.. the Canadian's "don't need no" one from America to teach them how to speak, maybe they do need to teach them grammar. ON the other hand having a Cherokee Great Grandmother and a German Great Grandfather, maybe I should grab RH's peace pipe and go Seig YOOOOOWHOOOO somewhere.
And Christianity is derived from Catholicism, Judism is or is it.. um, Zionist.. oh geeze.. LOL!
Our citizens pay taxes to help disabled people, and low income, as well as charities and CHURCHES, um (I know but will let someone else take over IN CASE I'm wrong) now who is it that pays for disable Canadians?
OH and please do not lie in the same hub because it's apparent. If you were "engaging" then you wouldn't of been so proud to "ruffle feathers then gloat" about it. That's not engaging that was trying to stir the pot that wasn't boiling over. ...
.... la te da! where was that darn PEACE PIPE darn it, I stole it from some Indian, now it's gone! Oh wait, bet it's in Canada cos like.. Oh, I think on my last visit I most likely left it on the table at the Cannabis Cafe'.
Katharella
Canadians do fine with grammar. My "don't need no" quote was the use of an Americanism to stress the point.
We love Americans. The only thing wrong with you is you aren't Canadian and you talk funny. ;) You drop letters in words like colour as if you own the language.
Now you are sure you aren't smoking crack in that pipe right? Canadians don't have any disabled people. They are physically challenged and our taxes pay to help with the specific challenge.
Christianity is derived from Judaism. Rome standardized it and called it the Universal church, which is what Catholic means. Then some heretics usurped it and made a real mess of things.
I always gloat when I ruffle feathers. Don't you? Otherwise what's the point? Motown and I have a special relationship. We are like a cat and dog that should be out to kill each other, but instead can be found walking the same road together like good friends, inviting skunks and raccoons to join us.
I found your pipe at the Cafe and gave it back to the Indian you stole it from. But I'll be glad to smoke a joint with you and help you work on your linguistic and social challenges. After all. It isn't your fault you are American. ;)
No I don't. I don't go around trying to jab and hurt people. I'm a narcissist, so that makes me better than you. Mo and I are from Detroit, you would die in a true fight.
I'm VERY PROUD to be an American. I can far exceed your linguistic expressions but I try to keep things so people of your stature can comprehend. That makes me better than you as well.
Katharella
And the other problem with Americans is they never know when you are just pulling their leg. lol...
Please do not address me again.
Katharella
Case closed.
Great hub! Straight and to the point. I try to keep an open mind about Christianity. I grew up Baptist, then when I married, my faith was tested. My husband believed in God, but had issues with believing the bible or church. I began to understand why as the years rolled around. The churches I attended began to shun me as I began to question and test the faith of others. Questions of my husband's that I couldn't answer, I would ask members of the church. It didn't take long for some true colors to come out and I gave up church for awhile.
When I joined HP, I floated around the religious forums and early on realized it wasn't for me. I may answer a question every once in awhile, but for the most part avoid it. I try not to "bible thump" anyone when I do talk about being a Christian. I found that sometimes it is easier to tell someone how God works in my life then to hammer them with scripture they may not understand.
Again, great hub!
writeronline, I actually see your point (and raise you one...lol). It frustrates the hell out of me when politicians twist and deform the law to suit their needs, or what they believe the needs of their constituents to be. In all honesty, if you truly believe in Christianity, then God has a covenant with the people of Israel (not the state as it exists today, but the race of people as it has existed for thousands of years). That said, when we claim that we have God on "our side" as the United States of America, we are drop dead wrong. First, law says that this is NOT a Christian nation - argue it all you want, folks who read this comment - but it is the LAW of the land that says it, not me. So, in that regard, writeronline, we've already addressed that point, in the law. You are absolutely right, however, that politicians bend and twist and do all sorts of verbal acrobatics to make sure they're doing what the polls say they should. Why don't they do what's flippin' right for a change? That would make the world such a better place, in my opinion. Even God believes in giving us what we NEED AND NOT WHAT WE WANT. If the U.S. people were given what we need for a change (a focus on U.S. unemployment, a focus on the repair and regrowth of the U.S. infrastructure, and a focus on defending our borders, rather than saving the world from the devil - ugh), this nation would return to being the envy of the world, rather than the laughingstock that Michelle Obama made it out to be during Barack's campaign.
I think the only defensible reason that our leaders have for invoking God's name during any speech addressed to the nation is that majority of American's do in fact have SOME SORT of belief in a Supreme Being. And, the AVERAGE atheist just isn't as militant about their unbelief, and GENERALLY isn't offended by references to God. BUT, the whole idea that America is somehow defended by God, or that we have some sort of covenant with the Christian God is a bunch of hooey. Yes, fundies, hooey I say.
You'll notice from the comments from Slarty what I'm talking about when I speak of the AVERAGE atheist and their GENERAL beliefs.
Oh my goodness, thank you SO much for reading and commenting. I fully intend to read through the Geronimo naming hub. Before I do so, though, I have to get a little more insight as to why it was such a poor move on Obama's part (read: find out more about Geronimo in our history).
Peace to you, my friend. And, never fear, I love when people disagree with me. That's how I learn. You will never offend me. And, I'm very good at smoothing things over by recognizing the "broad subject." :-)
Tip that's a great point - it's better to teach by living what you practice rather than just talking about it. I think you and MO are on the same wavelength there. With all the capitalism on religion in it's many forms - I think any God might be more than a little angry about what religion has become.
Now there are those who will preach to others and disregard feelings, and lie, cheat and steal Mon - Sat. On Sunday - well they say they are sorry in church and it's starts all over. Those people are the ones who need to keep visiting the churches - it's not taking;)
tip, thank you for stopping by and commenting...you know it's funny...my husband was raised in a Southern Baptist and I am Catholic...we have many differences, but in our attempts to understand and compare, we have come to certain conclusions that most fundy Christians attempt to just gloss over or explain away. There ARE contradictions in the Bible. How do we explain those? Beating an already beaten individual over the head with Scriptures that mean nothing to them without the Holy Spirit in their hearts is NOT the way to witness the saving grace of God to them. And, Real, you're right. Michael and I have struggled so much over the last three years, and the most sincere help in some cases have come from friends who don't even believe in God! Jesus, when He came, WAS ALREADY SHOWING HIS ANGER AGAINST WHAT RELIGION HAD BECOME! He tried to tell the Pharisees what hypocrites they were, He got angry about them selling wares in the temple (look at all these megachurches that have bookstores INSIDE the church!), and He said very clearly that he came to call sinners, not the righteous (or those who thought they were righteous). He said that SICK people need doctors, not healthy ones. I think it's time we realized we're ALL sick. Thanks for the comments, guys, I'm SO enjoying this hub!
Kat, Slarty is pretty smart. I know he can occasionally come off as a smartASS, which he is...lol That being said, he and I have very different beliefs (Slarty, I love the cat and dog illustration, that was priceless) but we have developed a very decent relationship. We disagree (shoot on the fundamentals like whether there even is a God) but we do it with a great deal of respect, openness, and humor - fine, Slarty, HUMOUR - and that works for us.
That being said, I hope that neither of you has really ruffled feathers after that not nice exchange because I love you both to pieces. :-)
People seldom get my humour. I love it when someone does. I could of course not care less if all Americans spoke German and wrote it in Chinese. No skin off my nose. ;)
Sorry you thought that was an unpleasant exchange. I've been baby sitting for my daughter all day. Sitting on babies is harder work than it sounds. They are lumpy and after a while my bum gets sore. Doesn't help that they wriggle around.
I thought the exchange was a very pleasant distraction and was surprised at the sudden surrender after boasting about being able to whoop my already sore butt. Was it something I said?
Damn, one slipped away from me. I need a bigger ass.
Get off the baby before she suffocates, please. Thank you. I personally didn't find the exchange terribly offensive, but when it appears as though one of my followers does, I do try to smooth things a bit, just because I love peace, and also because I think discussions should be discussions and not fights...but you already know that. And, just because I know when Kat pulls the Detroit card, she ain't playin'. :-)
And, babies really are lumpy, but they're oh so much fun...which you'll only realize after you get off of her. Don't worry either - Kat rarely surrenders. She may well be back at some point. That's truly what I love about her.
You want my ass? It's plenty big to keep any more from slipping away. Of that I can assure you! ;-)
RH: That is how, and why Anton LeVey wrote the first Satanic Bible. When he was a boy he would watch the people stumble out of the bar and be bright eyed and in church Sunday morning.
Mo, it's your hub I'm here to interact with my USA friends! I'm not ashamed of MY roots, just what others have made of them, I'm not them. Thus the same with religion.. don't think you saw my tatts though. They're a hoot. I love them, and am SO GLAD I got them. I have to gothic crosses under each forearm by my elbow. When I lift my arm or hand up, to a negative person/fake Christian they see them upside down. But they are NOT upside down. Not walking nor when I look up my arm at them either. ;) I think RH has seen a photo of them. Not sure...
I understand, Kat. I just didn't want you to be offended by any of my friends, whether from here or there, you know? Fake anything annoys the hell out of me. I don't do well with phonies of any type. I'd rather a real sinner than a phony saint be my friend/family any day of the week. Or an honest nonbeliever to a lying believer. And, Slarty (even though he is Canadian :P) is an honest nonbeliever.
I don't think I have seen the tats. Email me and I'll email you back and you can send me pics if you've got them.
Peace and love and big hugs to all!
lol... You know what divides people more than religion? Nationalism. I swear it's the root of all evil. I have to work on not being so darn proud to be Canadian. lol... It's hard.
What? You don't sit on your grandchildren in the US? You people have funny ways. Why do you think they call it baby sitting if you don't even sit on them?
Ok ok... Sorry Katharella. ;) Nice name by the way.
You're right about the nationalism, I have to say. I just look at it this way. I'm not proud to be a woman - I'm grateful that I am one. I'm not proud to an American - I'm grateful. I'm proud of the things I've done on my own. The other gifts have been given to me. And, woo hoo! My diplomatic efforts have succeeded.
No, we do NOT sit on our grandchildren. Only our pets (at least in my house...lol).
MO - I certainly didn't want to offend anyone - regardless of their physical location. I think of it as one world. I love your hubs because you are so open minded and cool. I like people because of their differences, it intrigues me. If I only wanted to communicate with people who thought the same way as me it would be pointless because I already know what I think;)
Me too, Real...And, if I only communicate with people who think like me, I may never find out if I'm wrong about something and change the way I think about it, or I may just never learn. Yay! Today, I'm open minded and cool? Thank you! You and Walt make my head and heart swell, you're both always so kind to me. :-) I want to give out big HUGS today!
Diplomatic to a fault. ;) Grateful indeed! Perfect way to look at things. You just put both of us to shame. Are you proud of yourself NOW? lol...
LOL, Slarty...nah. Not proud of myself, just glad that everyone is getting along and that when it comes down to it, today is a beautiful day - 65 degrees, sun, breeze, and happy HubPages friends. Who could ask for more than that. And, I got the mess behind and under my stove and refrigerator cleaned out. I'm proud of myself NOW!
That is a scary thought sometimes - wondering if you could be wrong when you've been so certain you were right. That's why I try to not be too sure about anything - that seems to be exactly when you find out how wrong you can be! I just say I'm ignorant from the get go, make quick work of it! Lol!
MO - I'm proud of you too!
Kel, you're so reasonsble. That's a very ready to learn kind of attitude, I think. I pray that I have that also. :-) I know that there are some things I'm certain of, for reasons I haven't explained yet, but hope to someday. For now, I'm open to just about everything. Read a few of Slarty's hubs, if you get a chance. He's VERY smart and his hubs are better researched than almost anyone's on HP.
Thanks, Kel. It was a workout, I'll tell you....but it's been needing to be done for longer than I'll admit...lol
RealHousewife
That's a lesson every seeker learns eventually. Investing belief in anything can be dangerous because if your life hinges on it and you are wrong, your world falls apart.
Best not to invest belief in anything; and there is no need to. Belief in a fact is redundant and belief in something speculative is foolishness.
Non-belief even helps in other areas of your life. It leaves you more open to new evidence. it teaches you that expectation can be as damaging as belief. If you are looking for truth you can't have a stake in what it is. You just have to want to know what it is no matter what it turns out to be.
Science is even discovering that very principal. We thought we were so close to answering it all. Now most honest scientists will tell you that as far as cosmology goes, we have to start over.
Christians often think science is a kind of religion because atheists believe in it. The funny thing is they are completely wrong. There is no room in science for belief. Too often have we learned that as soon as we think we know, we prove ourselves wrong.
Yes, many atheists think science is the best way we have of finding answers. But I would never put any belief behind unproven models. While I always thought the Big Bang was the most logical conclusion given the evidence we have, my world is not shattered to find out that in recent months we have found problems with the Big Bang that may soon render it an obsolete idea.
I still think science is the best method we have for getting at the truth. And the reason I say that is that it at least gives us a way to prove ourselves wrong so we can get back to work finding the correct models.
So to me you discovered one of the "secrets" of the universe. Good going. Always best to just wait and see. ;)
On one of the forums recently (and i do plan to take your advise and lay off the forums for a bit - ought to write hubs instead) someone asked me if a Christian doing good things wasn't selfish really, since we just do good stuff to get into heaven. I replied that Christians believe Jesus' death gets us into heaven, not our actions, and living a better life and becoming a better person is a reward of its own. The person wrote that in that case my philosphy sounded secularist. That struck me as just really sad - when a Christian says she wants to be a better person that surprises people. Is it because some very vocal Christians lean so hard on "are you saved or not" that character seems beside the point? I thought Jesus spent alot of energy on character refinement, genuine integrity, that sort of thing. How did we get here? Sometimes i'm frustrated by the bad reputation Christians seem to have. I also think a good portion of this behavior people don't like (the preachy stuff, the every conversation leads back to a quick rendition of the gospel, or a reminder that you are going to hell) is the result of a culture of guilt tripping from the pulpit. I don't know how many sermons, bible studies, pep talks, ect I've heard in my years in the church about how Christians don't "share their faith" because they have "fear of Man." Not getting out there and preaching the gospel, not turning conversations to the gospel, was branded cowardice, or apathy, or even ungratefulness for Jesus' sacrifice. I'm not justifying aggressive preaching behavior, but I'm trying to explain that those of us in the evangelical church were pushed to behave that way. I just wasn't comfortable - i'm too much an introvert, and too prone to think in shades of grey. But it does have a whole culture behind it, one that i think isolates Christians, and makes Christianity itself seem less attractive.
grace, I totally feel you on this one. I do think that the problem originates in the pulpit of most evangelical churches, especially more fundamental ones. And, yes, the "If you die tonight, do you know if you're going to heaven or not?" is another one of the reasons that even an attempt from a Christian to improve her character gets looked at by other Christians (honestly, how sad is this?) as a waste of time.
I truly think too many Christians think that once they're saved, that's the end of it. But, my take has always been that with the Holy Spirit inside of you, your character can't help but to DESIRE improvement. It's like making a more suitable home for a royal visitor...how could you not?
And, no, for a Christian to do good is not to become more secular (although like I said secular does not mean EVIL), it's to become like more Jesus. Being saved isn't where it ENDS, it's where it all begins.
I'm so grateful to have found open minded and beautiful folks like you and Slarty around here. I think you've got the right idea...and NO, doing good as a Christian isn't just to get into heaven or to earn our heavenly reward - it's to follow the command of our God and to make our bodies and our minds a suitable home for a King who has given His life for us.
Look at what I JUST found on a blog I follow, grace. Odd, I opened Google Reader just after finishing typing the comment above. You might be interested in the blog itself also.
My step father was a strict Irish Catholic (he called me a wild Indian) made me go to CCD classes and mass every Sunday. I loved their harmonious chanting - but the choir always sucked. I used to laugh because they are so sneaky. Like ok - no birth control - why? I suspect it was their way of guaranteeing more future Catholics that yanno (: haha - begat even more little Catholics! Thats why they feel obligated to give you a break on tuition based on the CHC (complete head count). Plus that whole confession thing? Yeah right. As a young girl - that was creepy. Ok now that I've poked a stick into a bee hive....lol!
I think all religions take a shiner for certain beliefs and are always judged by the other branches.
Oh, for sure, Real. I have to admit that I love the Catholic Church and there are reasons that I can never leave the denomination. The birth control thing I take issue with for certain reasons - and I'll confess that I don't abide by that specific law of the Church. Confession is a whole other story. It's changed a LOT since the second Vatican Council - enough that I LOVE the sacrament. I think it needs to really, truly be taught well as a sacrament before people will come to love it. Like you said, for little ones it can be creepy the way it used to be done. NOW, you can head into a little room and go to confession face to face. It's like having a little talk with the priest - much more child friendly. AND, I think it makes the children feel much less ashamed - they're not confessing their sins in the dark feeling like crap because they weren't nice to their brother or sister.
The other thing is that it has been renamed. It isn't the Sacrament of Confession anymore, it's the Sacrament of Reconciliation. I like that MUCH better.
Girl, you just convinced me to finish and publish a hub I've been sitting on for almost two months.
Thanks! :-)
That does sound a lot better. Mo I had to always narc myself out for swearing and smoking.I did love love the prayers too - oddly enough. Reciting the expected responses was relaxing and I liked the hum it seemed to make with the high ceilings. I would say it was my favorite and so I did send Laurel to Catholic school to get her religious education. She went through 8th grade. Funny how things work out, huh?
It is funny, sometimes. Those rote prayers and the chanting feel of them can be very soothing. Their whole purpose is to give us a focus on God. The thing with having them memorized and them being so easy and comfortable to recite is that we can let our minds settle on God, but not necessarily have to force ourselves to pray, if that makes sense.
Oddly enough one of my favorite things to do is listen to Gregorian chants and other medieval music while going to sleep. In fact I am listening to Antonio Caprioli as I write.
I've been known to put on my entire collection in the morning and keep it on for the entire day while working. I have several gigs of it on my computer.
There is one thing Christianity has done well and that's inspire wonderful relaxing music.
My friends used to be a bit shocked when they came to visit if it was on, remarking that my house sounded like a church and had I had some sort of epiphany?
The oddest moment was when a couple Mormons came calling.
They seemed confused and let down when I told them I was an atheist. ;)
LOL, Slarty. I have a very good friend who is a Mormon. She's given me the Book or Mormon twice. I've read through it once. After reading their tenets of faith I got rid of them after she gave me the second one. I wouldn't tell her that. She is one of the dearest, kindest, most loving and wonderful people I know. We used to have fascinating talks about religion when we worked together.
Then her sister got married (her sister was not a Mormon) and converted to Catholicism. For months, she asked me zillions of questions. I think she wanted to really know what her sister was letting herself in for...lol
Beautiful music is indeed a gift that the Church has given us. And, I love that you listen to it! HAHA That makes me smile. :-D
I kind of like Mormonism except for it's racist elements. They promised me that if I was a good Mormon I would eventually get a planet of my own to rule. That's pretty enticing. Much more so than just everlasting life in the presence of god, which sounds rather dull by comparison. At least I would have something to do with my immortality. But I could never get over the sacred underwear hurdle. Enough said about that....
But about the music. I am a musician in one of my rolls in life, so I like all kinds of music from punk to jazz to classical. My tastes even wander to Edgar Varese and Schoenberg as well as an idol of mine, Frank Zappa.
The only two types of Western music that don't get much air play in my house are country and rap. I'm not overly fond of either genera.
I'm the same way with music! (Are you sure we aren't brother and sister just separated by a different belief structure? - Oh, wait, that's EXACTLY what we are!) Anyway, I love music - almost all of it. I'm not a huge fan of rap or metal - although I like a lot of industrial type stuff. With the exception of Frank Zappa, I'm not familiar with those names?
And the other funny thing is Laurel is pretty religious. Until she started college she was very active in her church group and participated in all kinds of community service events. Like overnight lock ins and she volunteered at a food pantry, etc. She hasn't been as involved because she's so busy but its her choice and her life. I love her no matter what she believes.
And, you know the cool thing about that attitude, Real? That means SHE will love YOU no matter what she believes! When each person keeps an open mind and lives to love, a lot can happen as far as understanding goes. Just my thoughts on it.
I have to say - I didn't expect a great deal of positive feedback on this hub (or the one I published this morning.) I expected much more discord. It's been nice!
Unchained Grace Ministries, LLC has been active on the streets of Baltimore City and beyond since 1999. Wanna keep it real here? The average evangelist would get chewed up on any given urban environment. It's always the same bumpersticker platitudes and euphemisms. 99.9% of the street people know God's Word as well or better than you but you ain't for real to them. They ain't tryin' to hear your mess because you have no clue where they been and why they are no longer attending church or even staying in the Word.
Evangelism, back in the day, has been replaced by patronizing judgemental attitudes. We been on the streets from Baltimore City to DC to NYC and onto LA. Gangbangers, prostitutes, substance abusers, slingers and the homeless. If you really want to reach into the devil's camp and snatch back what he stole, lose the useless online debates, the forums and all the rest that do nothing but suck you into their mess. Just leave 'em where they is.
M2C, this was a good Hub and you can consider this a piece of positive feedback on your Hub. My Hubs was never about conversion. Read through one or two and you'll see.
lol... Edgar Varese was Frank Zappa's idol and a lot of his instrumental music is based on Edgar's work. Schoenberg is the inventor of twelve tone music. It's all musicians music. But people hear parts of it or variations of it in movie backgrounds all the time. It is good at creating moods. Particularly suspense and horror.
I have to agree with unchained grace...I have read the hubs..and they are fantastic...that is where the work is on the streets loving the unlovable to our worlds standards aren't worth the time but Jesus had the time..that is the message..WOW!!!!
I see a lot of comments here patting you on the back so I will be the unpopular, uncool, christian geek here. I have to disagree with your statement that a secular forum is not the place to preach. First, this is an open public forum. Not an "any thing but the word of god forum". If some one posted an article about gay marriage, it would be wrong for a bunch of hetero's to criticize. I think Christians should have the same right to voice themselves with out backlash.
Second, I can't believe a Christian would have any problem with other Christians speaking about God in any way they choose as long as it is not blasphemous. That would be like a Detroit Lions fan who posts a hub praising the team only to be rebuked by another fan. "You know I know we're both fans and love the team but this is not the stadium so could keep quiet until gameday."
Third, even if this was a "secular" forum, wouldn't that make it the place to go to find the non-believer. If I worked for AA and wanted to let alcoholics know there is help available I might want to go to a bar to find them. I could try a library or church, but I'm not giving it a high rate of success.
Finally, I don't see where your time and place theory holds water. The best place to speak about the lord is when your heart is moved to do so. I commend any one who has the courage to speak out for what's right even if they will be criticized. I am still trying to have that courage to speak out whenever I see a need. I see people here who hub about Justin Bieber, True Blood, etc to the point of ad nauseam. However, I did not see you post any thing regarding that. Maybe I missed it.
I am no saint and I will grant you that some people do take it too far. With that said, too far is better than nothing at all. A persons life is probably the best way to reach someone but it's not the only way. Since most people on the hub will never meet face to face or hang out "preaching" is the only way really available. The "preachers" will be able to hold their head high when it is time for them to be judged. I can assure you they won't be told "wrong time, wrong place".
OooooOooOoOoooOohhhhhh, right. What?
tdjblogs, you need never feel that you are unpopular or uncool when you post a comment to one of my hubs. I try to be sure that everyone here feels welcome and loved. That's actually part of what I'm talking about in this hub. So many of the Christians on this site who choose to use it as a mission field and who choose to spend the majority of their time witnessing/evangelizing aren't writers. Those are evangelists. Some of them have never written a hub or have written very few (much like some of the aggressive and militant atheists on the site). If you have spent any time in the forums here, you will notice that the term "ad nauseum" applies to some Christians posting to have Christ's message heard as well. I am not faulting my Christian brothers and sisters here at HubPages, I am calling their attention to whether they have exhausted their efforts and might need to consider spending their time doing other things - if they choose to stay at HubPages, fine. But, if their evangelistic efforts are unsuccessful, perhaps they should move on...shake the dust from their feet as it were. Or, simply try writing some hubs to edify their Christian brothers and sisters for REAL WORLD evangelism.
That's the funny thing too. I'm in total agreement with Unchained Grace...the type of evangelism one finds here on the internet (or here at the internet microcosm that is HubPages) wouldn't work for a second on the streets. People simply don't respond to having the Bible or the message of Christ shoved down their throat with one after another verse from the Bible, often out of context, or only to argue the one previous forum post. Many of them do, however, respond to a warm meal, a listening ear, and an offer of hospitality. You can't offer any of those things, or give them on the internet.
Too far may be better than nothing at all, with you I agree there. I also think however, that too far against Jesus' wishes is not a good idea. And, I may be wrong, but yes, I do feel that there WILL be a judgment on where and when we choose to SPEAK God's word, but there will never be a judgment on where we choose to DO IT.
That was my point in this hub. I appreciate very much that you would offer what you feel is an unpopular or uncool opinion. I don't in any way or for any reason, however, want you to ever feel that you shouldn't do so on one of my hubs. This hub was meant to encourage discussion, and you have assured that is has, and will. Thank you for that! Peace!
Unchained Grace, thank you for stopping in and for the beautiful and uplifting comment. I, in no way felt that your comment was negative. As a matter of fact, I feel that it very much reinforces the point I was hoping to make. I will pray that your ministry continues to be fruitful, and will certainly read a few of your hubs as soon as I can!
Slarty, that's VERY interesting about Edgar Varese...going to have to look him up. Honestly, if they use that type of movie in a lot of suspense and horror films, I may well have been exposed to it and just not know it. Those are generally my favorite types of movies next to historical ones. :-)
Oh I missed something somewhere - but I'll just let it alone. I do appreciate that you are so knowledgeable about your religion and I think it's nice that you're willing to answer questions - you have the ability to make people feel comfortable and that's a gift:) bonsoir:)
Real, what did you think you missed??? Don't let it alone. My curiosity can't take that!
Well is the most recent comment regarding(from td) I don't know what the being uncool is about? I don't understand why someone would think any point of view here is seen as uncool or all that? I was not - I swear I hope I didn't come across that way - like anyone's opinion isn't respected:). I kinda got lost from there on - like are they saying you should try to convert others?or was it that you should do this on the forum? See! IDK!
I think what tdjblogs was trying to say was that I seemed to have a very popular opinion, and that I, as a Christian, was not standing up for what was right in this hub. I think the point that was being made was exactly the opposite point from the one I was making in the hub...and that yes, you should attempt to convert others in a secular setting, and that as a Christian, I was doing wrong to say otherwise. I don't think you missed anything.
I think, though, that it was an honest and well meaning attempt to share the gospel - again, this is not bad in and of itself, but I think the point of my hub was missed by this particular individual. I didn't address the point about the AA person going into the bar to share the message of AA. That spoke for itself I thought.
tdjblogs wasn't saying that YOU guys were uncool, but that his opinion would be because you all seemed to be in agreement with me. I don't know if he read through ALL the comments or not. If he had, he'd have seen what a loving and gracious and openhearted bunch you all are.
wow!!! nice!!!
Ok - first MO - you're one of the kindest individuals I've ever met. If I felt I needed religion in my life - you are exactly the person I would want to come to for guidance.
I don't mean to say this to be rude but if we are to learn something important here I must say it. That person (I'm not sure if td is male or female - I'm not even leaning toward male because of the football, I love football:) but anyhow - that person seems a little bit angry and I would run away from that. I'm not positive about that because it's written - but however you choose to get your
message out - you've done it with a good heart and good intentions. I regard you so highly for
that!
MO - Can I nominate you to be - what is the term - canonized? Lol
Great hub....vote up! Vote up!
karengibsonroc, thank you for stopping in and reading! Glad you took something away from this hub. It's been...interesting, to say the least. :-)
Real, you're funny! And, I suppose you could nominate me for canonization, but I'd rather you waited a while since I have to be dead for that to happen...lol I'm not quite ready for that yet. And, anger is the part of that post that very fundamental Christians - the ones who do the Bible thumping - a)don't recognize and b)don't understand actually drives people AWAY from wanting to hear any of the real message of Jesus. Yes, Jesus got angry, but He got angry at those things that others' did in the name of religion that they should have just left alone. He knew that ultimately anger wasn't the answer. And, the MOST important thing? God sent Jesus to die specifically to satisfy His anger, so that He could show His mercy! I may err occasionally by not sharing the Gospel with someone when someone else might jump to do so, but I'd rather be a living Bible, when it comes down to it than a mouth (or a screen) full of words.
You know I love you to bits and pieces!
sassy, THANK YOU, I appreciate your comments, the time you spent with my hub, in my little world, and I appreciate your positive feedback!
Shoot MO I don't want to have to kill you to get you canonized! Lol! Ok I'll wait and do it in the far away future:)! LOL
Yes, Real, that would be preferable, thank you! LOL I appreciate that you'd prefer to preserve my life rather than have me canonized. :-)
Well it's much easier to talk to you while your alive! I haven't figured out how to communicate with the dead yet:) lol!
Real, That's because once again your limited minds cannot comprehend the 'verse around you. You want to talk to the dead? Let me know I have my own personal hotline. ;p
Mo.. I have a T-shirt you would LOVE! After reading your statement under mine. On the back it says "I'd rather be an open sinner than a false saint" and my son got me that shirt because I refused to live the false life the "Christians" in my family who judged everyone unfairly, especially me. I've always just been real and that's one reason a lot of people don't like me (or my narcissist friend lol) because unless we're joking around, we have little tolerance for anything fake or false. She's an atheist but I still admire her, and just think she's the cats meow because her heart is gold and she has never felt she needed anything to guide her to be the good person that she is. I would trust her with anything. I told her about the whole narcissist thing she cracked up. She also just takes people for who they are to her regardless of their belief's they just have to be 'good people.' That is one thing that has kept us friends for so many years.
I just love you to death you're such a sweetheart! :)
RH: You spoke the words for me up earlier in the postings! lol. ..if you meant to I'd thank you for it, but since it was just you, I'll just say "wow, THAT ROCKED! JUST LIKE YOU!" :)
Car - give me the number that would be so cool! I'd like to talk to Jimmy Hoffa (Sr that is)! Elvis, my grandparents and James Dean!
Kat - you amaze me more and more. I'd like that friend of yours I bet:). You have it right too Kat though I mean we all believe different things because of the personal experiences we have had and how can someone knock you for that? I don't try to guess what things could have happened in a persons life to make them who they are - I can just accept them as a friend and hopefully learn from them. Who knows? I could find out Im wrong about what I thought I was truly right about! Right?
Kat and Real, that's what I think with every encounter...you never know what is happening to a person or what HAS happened to them that makes them act as they do. Some people are truly struggling every day and every moment of their lives just to get by, and that can be true no matter what we see. I'd rather be a ray of sunshine for someone than the thundercloud that does them in and turns their life into a horrible storm.
You are MO - you really are:)!!!
Wow, thanks, Real. That's my purpose I think really. And, it's always been my desire to be truly and honestly kind to at least one person a day!
Well you can rest for the remainder of the day my friend. You just might turn me Catholic someday girl;) haha!
I've been known to do it to others...lol Without that particular intention, I might add. :-) And, thanks for that. I could use a pat on the back every now and again.
Mo - I'd give you one everyday! You know you deserve it!
The Major tried to change me too - he swears once he saw the virgin Mary when he was supposed to die. He survived too and whe. Medicine was brutal. He had lots of faith;)
Well, Real, trying to change another person is usually a HUGE exercise in futility. You is who you is, yanno? And that's exactly what made people follow Jesus so faithfully when He came - He loved(loves) us just as they(we) were(are). It's usually those of us who follow Him who find that hard to do. Like Ghandi said, "You Christians are so unlike your Christ." :-(
tdjblogs, I would like to respectfully disagree with you on several points.
"I can't believe a Christian would have any problem with other Christians speaking about God in any way they choose as long as it is not blasphemous."
I am a devoted Christian of several decades and I have a problem with the way some Christians speak about God. I think Christians should not talk about God in a way which turns people off to Christianity and solidifies their desire to never be Christian themselves. I think this is a great tragedy. Things which turn people off: talking down to them, behaving as though one has a monopoly on truth, telling them they are going to hell, referring to them as sinners, giving shallow answers to complex questions, showing little or no compassion, needing to be right about everything, acting like an authority on subjects where you have little information and limited insight. I have seen Christians do all of these things, and quite a bit. These Christians are not winning anyone: they are driving people away.
Do you think you are witnessing for Christ? I think the opposite. I think you are witnessing against Him. There was a book published recently called "They like Jesus but not the Church." The message of this book is simple. People in general think very highly of Jesus. But they think poorly of the behavior of the average Christian. They veiw the church as an organization they want nothing to do with. This is not because of the teachings of Jesus, which are highly admired, but because of the behavior of Christians. And "preaching" is high on the list of things that people dislike.
Let's think about this for a minute. Why do people dislike preaching? Because they don't want to hear the message of Jesus? But they like Jesus. The problem is the preachers themselves. (Preaching Christians console themselves that Jesus is being rejected - not them. But they're wrong. Jesus is doing just fine. It's the preacher's being rejected. And not for being christlike either.)
"The best place to speak about the lord is when your heart is moved to do so."
I respectfully disagree. A person may feel very moved to speak about God at a time when what they say will only damage the cause of Christ. Many are passionately moved to say all sorts of things. I think the time to talk about God is when HE moves you to do so, and when talking about Him will do some good.
"The "preachers" will be able to hold their head high when it is time for them to be judged. I can assure you they won't be told "wrong time, wrong place"."
And you are confident how Judgement Day will go?
Forgive me, but when you are telling others how well you are going to do at Judgement (and by implication how others will not do as well as yourself) you are not in a good place. This is the sort of, forgive me, self righteousness, that turns people away from the church.
The Pharisees and religious leaders were sure they were more righteous than the common people. They were very sure. As confident as yourself.
Jesus spoke of those who assumed He liked their "ministry": "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then i will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me!' "
On the other hand, Jesus had nothing but good to say about those who helped the poor and sick. He took people into His kingdom who not only helped these unfortunates without preaching to them, they helped them without realizing Jesus would reward them. They helped without expecting a reward on Judgement Day. They certainly weren't tell others their Judgement Day reward would be better.
grace, that was beautifully, and very respectfully said. Thank you, dear sister. :-)
Yup. You, Grace and just_curious would make a good team. ;)
Why thank you! I haven't seen just_curious around in a while. But, she is a lovely person. I can tell just from the cute kitty avatar!
Yes I up and awesome what grace said:) a truly graceful person I see. I am reminded at times that according to the Bible being pious is a sin. So I am sometimes really surprised with those who identify with Christians, do that.
When I was in the 4th grade , nearing the end of the year, my family moved. I had just gotten my ears pierced and this girl told me that her momma said I was a savage! She said if God would have wanted me to have holes in my ears, I'd have been born with them. (she was JW btw) well I was very upset. I went home from school and told my mother about this new found worry. She didn't miss a beat and she said, "now you go on back to school tomorrow and you tell that little girl if her mother really believes that she should be sending her daughter to school naked:)!!!!
Amen, Real. I'm guessing that girl never did come to school naked, eh?
No but guess what MO? She got her ears pierced the next year;) she also started wearing pants! Omg! What would the Lord think? Haha!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Well, I never wear a skirt if I can help it (save for the three years in the convent when I wore a habit) and I got my ears pierced when I was ten. What kind of heathen am I????
I was just reading a piece someone wrote about the rapture, and the person said that when people get raptured the ink of their tatoos will be left behind because leviticus says not to tattoo yourself. I guess piercings will get left behind too, like donut holes or something.
grace.............I don't even know what to say about that. Except this. That's what I mean about people misinterpreting the Bible. Leviticus is a PRIESTLY law. It was meant to be followed by the Priests - not the people of God in general. If I could roll my eyes on screen for you, I gladly would. Just know that I am.
There should be an emoticon for eyerolling.
Absolutely, my friend. :-)
RH: You would highly like my friend, she's a walking wealth of information!
No one should judge her harshly in her upbringing, her parents gave her the choice to either go or not go to church and she never enters anything blindly, if it's not scientifically proven, then it's just NOT. I don't judge her, and I don't judge her parents.
Mo: Gotta just HUG you!
Well, WHEN/IF I am raptured (lol) my tattoos would be going with me because the God I believe in doesn't judge my worldly goings on, nor go back on promises, and if he/she/it doesn't take me as I am, (an open sinner not a false saint) then I don't want to go. (I'll stay here with my friend, lol) Just the same as you'll never find me in a church, unless I feel the need to be judged. (AGAIN)
People like that are the ones like my neighbor who came over and said I was not a "Christian" because she didn't like my yard decor (which is none of her business) if she steps on my porch again, and litters her religious propaganda she's going down my porch backwards, and she's going to be sited for littering. Another thing, much as I love reading your hubs Mo, and I know because you're a good heart, I'll most likely not be coming back to read the religious ones, because I've had that life of all religions and I've made my choices, and I'm feeling preached to, watching you be put down for your ways of thinking and insulted, and I know you can stand up for yourself! But I don't like the kinds of people that flock to seek out who they can bring down, it's just MORALLY WRONG. I really don't want that in my life, because there's always someone there to try and bring others down such as the person who needs the eye roll.. I've better things to do... um, say.. like stare at the ceiling. :) xox *hearts* See you guys at your other hubs (oh and btw I deleted Superhero hub RH, cos, it was meant for a fun thing and those people were no longer fun) Ah, I have a group for that anyway :) )
Kat, thanks...I understand not wanting to read the religious themed ones. And, my feelings aren't hurt one little bit. Also, I LOVE LOVE LOVE hugs and will also take a million. Just to clarify, the person speaking about rolling eyes was grace, and she and I and Real were going back and forth about the silly things people believe are necessary to prove their holiness - like no tattoos, girls only wearing skirts, that kind of stuff. I mentioned that I wish you guys could see me roll my eyes, and grace agreed!
Leviticus also talks about a four legged fowl and that's not real as far as I know:) sorry! If anyone can explain that one I'd like to know what it is. And with all due respect:)
I think the rain on the coast is making our computers run slow, or maybe it could be I took mine apart last night to get the dust out of the fan lol.. really it works better it's the weather it's happening to my friends too. Anyway, don't get me wrong, I certainly will always come to your hubs, I think you're a wonderful person and soul, I do get defensive when I see good people insulted.
RH: I love what your mothers reply about the ear piercing was LOL
About the four legged foul, we have to remember extinction and back in those days there might have been. Not to mention that if we talked like Jesus talked, we'd be speaking another language not English, so a LOT more than people think gets lost in translation! :) Although people who like legs would love a 4 legged chicken huh! :)
I think the rain on the coast is making our computers run slow, or maybe it could be I took mine apart last night to get the dust out of the fan lol.. really it works better it's the weather it's happening to my friends too. Anyway, don't get me wrong, I certainly will always come to your hubs, I think you're a wonderful person and soul, I do get defensive when I see good people insulted.
RH: I love what your mothers reply about the ear piercing was LOL
About the four legged foul, we have to remember extinction and back in those days there might have been. Not to mention that if we talked like Jesus talked, we'd be speaking another language not English, so a LOT more than people think gets lost in translation! :) Although people who like legs would love a 4 legged chicken huh! :)
Have to admit, I've never seen a four legged fowl...lol Maybe sometime in the future with all the genetic manipulation, though...lol
And, Kat, thank you! I think you're a wonderful person also. Don't get me wrong, I am so appreciative when people get defensive for me. But, worry not, I may seem soft and lumpy, but I can hold my own. I can put on gloves with the best of them when necessary.
When it all comes down to it, though, I am always willing to agree to disagree. I will not fight to convince another person that my right is their right and that's all there is to it.
:-) And, I expect to see you at all my hubs now, sister! You said it. I got in it black and white! ;-)
Well just so you know I really wish someone had a good answer for that question. Ive been wondering about what that could be for a long, long time. I wasn't being mean I am sure you know that right MO? Thats the thing I don't like about typing your feelings - you can't know Im speaking softly:)
Kat - yes I have considered extinction - but a fowl has only two legs. So it isn't the same creature and I wonder if they will ever dig one up:)
I'm gonna have to look that one, Real...and shoot, honey, don't worry. I never feel like I'm being goaded by you or that you're being mean. It's been years since I've been through the book of Leviticus to be honest, but I'll see if I can ever come up with some kind of answer for you. Don't count on it though. The Bible sometimes just leads to more questions than answers. I think that's God's nature, so it would make sense to ME that it be the nature of His Word as well.
I'll see what I can do. :-) Love you. Have I ever told you that you remind me a LOT of my sister?
Mo - no but I am flattered if I remind you of your siser! I agree the Bible doesn't always make sense but it doesn't either convince me that it isn't meaningful in some way. You know, Im just a big skeptic waiting for someone to prove the truth. I love learning about it and no wonder it is a topic that never gets boring you know? Its just fascinating to think about all the different religions! Oh - MO - I have a hub I have been working on that has to do with an unusual religion. I can't wait to see what ya think:) I love YOU to bits:)
That you remind me of my sister (who is also a HUGE religious skeptic) is a very good thing. She is one of most most admired people in the world. AND, she won't buy anything until you prove it's right - pretty much like you. But she loves me and I love her. So, that's all that matters. Oooooooh, can't wait! Love hubs about religion and all things spiritual.
Nice hub, I liked it. Lately I have not been very religious but I am feeling like I need to start paying more attention to it.
It can never hurt, vinsanity. I'm so glad you liked the hub! Thanks so much for stopping by!
LOL Kel, trust me if my friend digs one up, she'll let me know! She's on the verge of her first trip to another land to be an Archeologist! So that's her specialty digging things up! ha!!
Mo: Hey.. really we don't know if their fowl is the same as ours.. I mean there's lots lost in translations so maybe back then they did have 4 legged chickens! Who knows! Hey had golden goats! lol heheh :)
I wish there were more ways to put emphasis on the way things are said like rather than a wink smile ;) I have one that is a less than sign, but it's used in html so I'd have to write it out in the code hub but it doesn't work in a comment box! That's why I *smirk* n' stuff :)
I put up a useless banter hub btw lol for.. well, useless banter! :) That way, our serious stuff won't detour people away that have to scroll down past all of it to get to post relevance to the hub like vinsanity! :) Not everyone has the patience! xo
Ain't that the truth, Kat! I'll be over to check it out asap! :-) And, hey, I tend to read smart aleck really well, so no worries there!
No one has seen talking donkeys or snakes either but they are in the bible too.
This is the Christian version:
20All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.
21Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
22Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
This is the Torah, English translation:
20 All winged swarming things that go upon all fours are a detestable thing unto you.
21 Yet these may ye eat of all winged swarming things that go upon all fours, which have jointed legs above their feet, wherewith to leap upon the earth;
22 even these of them ye may eat: the locust after its kinds, and the bald locust after its kinds, and the cricket after its kinds, and the grasshopper after its kinds.
So the problem is the that the English Christian translation is wrong about four legged fowl.
However both versions are wrong about the number of legs insects have. The likelihood is though, that the bible is just talking about insects and the Christin scribes got it all "fowled" up.
I'll get back to you if I find anything interesting from a direct translation.
I actually looked it up after talking to Real about it...of course I clicked first on the SAB (Skeptics Annotated Bible) lol Now that I know which chapters and verses I'm going to check the translations we have in the house. I'm also going to pull out the commentary I have to see if there is anything about it in there. Now, talking donkeys and snakes are miraculous things, like the Burning Bush. Rich Mullins was taught by a Bible teacher who said to him..."Remember, God spoke to Balaam through an ass. And he's been speaking through asses ever since." ;-)
Don't know if this will come out right. It looks good before I save but who knows. It is a word for word translation without interpretation. Looks like the Torah version is the right one or at least better.
11:20 ???? ALL ?????? SWARMER ?????? the~FLYER ???????? the~WALK~ing(ms) ??? UPON ???????? FOUR ?????? FILTHY ???? HE ????? to~you(mp)
11:21 ???? SURELY ??? AT ??? THIS ????????? you(mp)~will~EAT ?????? from~ALL ?????? SWARMER ?????? the~FLYER ???????? the~WALK~ing(ms) ??? UPON ???????? FOUR ?????? WHICH ??? NOT ????????? LEG~s2 ???????? from~UPWARD ?????????? to~FOOT~s2~him ???????? to~>~much~LET.LOOSE ?????? in~them(fp) ??? UPON ??????? the~LAND
11:22 ??? AT ?????? THESE ????? from~them(m) ????????? you(mp)~will~EAT ??? AT ?????????? the~SWARMING.LOCUST ???????? to~KIND~him ????? and~AT ?????????? the~LOCUST ?????????? to~KIND~him ????? and~AT ?????????? the~LEAPING.LOCUST ?????????? to~KIND~him ????? and~AT ??????? the~GRASSHOPPER ?????????? to~KIND~him
Yeah. The system didn't like the Hebrew letters after the save. But you get the point. It's pretty obvious they were talking about insects, not birds.
I like that teachers comments. Of course I would correct him by saying there are plenty of asses that believe a god is speaking through them. I'd make a bean joke but it probably isn't appropriate. ;)
I just had a thought. It's probably not a bad idea to warn people about not eating fictitiousness insects. Other things I wouldn't eat are 40 foot African mowmow worms, arctic snow snakes, and piranha flies, to name a few. ;) Be warned
Ahhh...hopefully, Real will see that. I was going through some of the translations in the house, and I kept being led to insects also. I wonder if they just assumed in that time that all flying things were fowl? I'm going to have to dig deeper into this when I'm more awake...lol
Thanks you guys - I'm following with great interest. You see, my grandfather who was an atheist (when being an atheist just wasnt cool:) and he used to really upset people because he had READ the Bible a couple of times. He was an extremely intelligent guy and knew almost every vocabulary word invented. He could do a NY crossword puzzle quicker than anything. He was convinced the Bible was fiction - has fictitious events and creatures. This is one of the things he pondered (The Four Legged Fowl) until the day he died. No one could ever prove to that man such creatures existed therefore he said the good book was a fairy tale. So I sure hope I can find that answer before I die:)
Your grandfather should have married my mom, Real. She was the female version, it sounds like. Anyway, I tend too agree with Slarty that the bible was likely talking about insects. My guess is that the original languages in which it was written didn't have a suitable word other than fowl for things that flew. Anyway, pay attention to his other warnings about what not to eat. Slarty, I can guarantee that I won't be eating ANYTHING reptilian or insect-ian in nature anytime soon! ;-)
Well what religion is that where people can not eat anything if the animal had hoofed feet? I'm not sure how to spell that:). It is considered unclean? Does this sound familiar at all?
Yup - And it is Judaism I believe. And they could eat animals with hooves, but not with cloven (split) hooves from what I understand.
Isn't that so interesting?! What do you think of that? The only food thing I can thin of in Catholicism was Fish on Friday. No meat - and lent?
Actually the word used in the Hebrew translates directly to:the~flyers. Anything that flies was just a flyer. Then a specific name was given to specific animals who were flyers. So insects had names and so did birds and we see that in the text. It is specific as to what not to eat. But that list would be too long. So what you could eat was a better choice to be specific about. We would likely do the same if writing about what kinds of bugs are eatable and which are not. On the other hand the list was shorter as to which birds can not be eaten so that list is specified; and the ones you can eat are the rest.
There is no reason to think the Hebrew words suggest fowl in relation to these passages. It is clearly a case of English middle ages translators making a mess of things. Could be they used Latin or Greek translations which contained the error already. I haven't investigated it that completely. But it is very possible to likely they did not use the Hebrew texts themselves.
The problem is the four legs idea. They knew what grasshoppers look like and there were some in those days that were 6 inches long. They went extinct, but would have been around 3000 years ago. So they knew they had 6 appendages. They go into detail as to how the leg should be formed.
My guess is that it is a reference to WALKing on four legs. The other front pair are usually used as hands. That might well have been something they noticed. Even a fly will lift the front appendages to manipulate food. So they could have considered insects to have 4 legs/feet and two arms/hands.
That is my best guess.
However, there are plenty of mythological animals in the bible like talking snakes and donkeys, leviathan and a land monster I can think of the name of. I think there are others as well. A griffin I think, which does have 4 legs and wings.
And the fact is, Genesis has a whack of contradictions in it as to creating all animals including the flyer from the sea, and then again creating them all from the land. So there is no end to the contradictions we can and have found. I don't think this is one of them and I am probably as skeptical or more so of the bible than your grandfather.
Wow, Slarty, thank you! Actually, that does me a ton of good. See, Real, he's got lots of answers! :)
Right - there's a lot to consider! And the very best answer I have heard to date. Thanks Slarty! I find these things fascinating. So now I'm going to have to google the griffin:). That sounds interesting possibility?
I bet you and my grandfather would have had some darned interesting conversations! I'd have loved to be a four legged fowl on the wall;)!
Wow Mo, You sure got a lot replies on this one.
Did I miss a pole-dancing-for-Jesus video or something?
(LOL)
The Bible says to "put forth the word of God and it shall not return void." Certainly, the best witness is how you live your life, it will affect any verbal witness you do.
I know that I don't know it all and that I don't have all the answers. I am far from perfect too. I believe going through life wrong about something is a real waste of time. If I am wrong, I want someone to show me. I don't want to go through life wrong about something. Who would? I also understand that I am not the end authority on anything, but many people believe they are the end authority - "because they said so."
As always its a pleasure to read your work and say hello my friend,
- best wishes and good job too!
- Harlan
Harlan, my darlin' (look, that rhymes!), been missing you! I know the weather is such that you're working your tookus off. Glad to see you back at one of my hubs. I agree with my whole heart that you can NOT send God's word out and expect it to come back void. He said it wouldn't. That being said. I think once you've said it, you pretty much need to shut up and let Him do what He's gonna do. And, honestly, what's the sense in beating a dead horse, for lack of a better phrase. If, for example, someone has heard the word and rejected it multiple times, let that person go. The Lord will deal with Him when the right season arrives. And, I don't mean the Lord will send that person straight to hell. I mean that the Lord will work it out according to His plan. And, you and me...I hate the "because I said so" attitude. Worse thing about the evangelists here is that it's really because THEY said so, but they keep up the facade that it's because GOD said so. That's not right.
Pleasure to have you back for a bit, and thanks so much for the kind, kind words!
Well said, Mo2Chi,
Evangelism is not about pretending "In His Name" but the representation of that exact meaning; In his very character (name) -Creator In Us.
The issue is the message. It is supposed to be quite simple and to the point. It has become something else entirely. But, it is getting back to its true root and all those fruitless trees are getting uprooted one by one.
Voted Up!
James.
You know, James, I think you're right that in some cases/places it's getting back to its true root. I can't wait until that happens on the internet! Thanks so, so much for reading and commenting. Feel free to come back any time you like! :-)
Hey, Indeed. Funny you mention the Net. rumor has it, the web is now becoming obsolete and mobile is the pinnacle/end of technology. As it happened to televangelism, so it will happen with the internet. Might take another 10 years or so... PS, Glad you allowed my comment(s)
:)
James.
Of course...mobile is probably going to make ALL things "HOME" obsolete, unfortunately...lol And, you may rest assured, I allow EVERY comment. First, disagreement is healthy. Second, I didn't really see your comment as disagreeable to my hub statement in any way. Third, even if I had, I'm always open to a great discussion provided everyone remains loving and kind and non-combative. You're always welcome to comment on my hubs!
One thing is clear from this "four legged flyer" thing - we should not eat buffalo wings.
HAHAHAHAHA, grace, that's priceless...I hope Real sees that one. I, for one, love Buffalo Wings...lol Am I going to hell? Ugh.
LOL Grace! I promise - the next time I even see a buffalo wing - this is going to pop into my head! Haha!
There you go, Real. Although I still have never seen a buffalo with wings. Hmmm.
Hi Mo, just a little more background re 'the four-legged fowl'. (And, in context with what Grace is avowing..)
In my past life (as an ad guy), I worked for several years on the Kentucky Fried Chicken account, and - keep this to yourself, it may be industrial espionage, even telling you, or libel...God forbid! (lol, how did the big G get in there, I'm an atheist..) Anyway, back to the point...as part of their ongoing, and very successful research and development program, you know, like the Miracle of Hormonal Growth, where an egg becomes a chicken becomes a meal becomes a profit - all in one day (even God couldn't do that could he?), the Holy Grail (it's all religious now, innit..)was, wait for it... a double-breasted chicken, with, of course, four legs.
Along with every egg being a double yolker, (thus begetting two chickens for the price of one, and significantly enhancing downstream profits (prophets? sorry), and the Secret Recipe of Eleven Herbs and Spices, achievement of this quest was to have completed the Holy Trinity of Fried Chicken. Yeah, verily, it is written, in the Colonel's own hand. I have seen it with mine own eyes...
If you find that too hard to believe, remember that in the cuisine of the Far East, (or quite probably, in a Chinese Takeout joint near you) the 'chickens' frequently have four legs - usually little furry ones....
You know it's true, Mo.
writeronline, that is priceless! I'm going to have point Real right to this comment.
On the other hand, I may never eat KFC again!
We order from a local Chinese takeout, and have one outdoor cat. Every night I wonder if he's going to come home as himself or Kung Pao.
It's all just 'cultural differences' isn't it, really?
BTW, way back in this comments trail, you threatened to have a read of my Geronimo / bin Laden / George Bush hub. Of course, you don't have to, but I'd be very interested in your views, being as you're a bona fide American, and I'm just some guy from downunder, observing from the outside. It's called "Words of War, Weapons of Mass Deception....".
Keep smiling, Mo, and mind out for that kittenchicken..
Know what? I shall take a look at that hub this very minute.
Eew. Furry chicken. That just sounds really disgusting.
And, I am indeed a bona fide American. Made and distributed right here in the good ole U.S.A., haha.
The overzealous, quick to judge ones don't see how they actually repel people rather than attract them. It's been nice to your contribution with your more balanced views
Thank you, Baileybear. I agree with you, and thanks for the compliment. Sometimes, I think extremists are so adamant about getting a "win" that the message of how to behave gets lost. The strangest thing is that I know the Bible tells us to go out and make disciples, but first, you do that best by example - and second, where does it say your heaven is going to better the more you get? That attitude is frustrating to me. :-)
Very nicely said Motown. Should be a must read for every new evangelists that signs up with Hub Pages.
I agree with stillcurious. Great writing. I was quite surprised by the amount and ferocity of the ridicule, name-calling, and insults on the forums here at HP, by both extreme camps. Let's lead by example first, and provide guidance when and *if* it can do some good.
stillcurious - I agree...lol And, a must read for many of the existing ones. Thanks for reading, and I'm glad you found it well presented.
jponiato, thanks to you as well. I'm glad that you both dropped by. The forums shocked me as well when I first came in, and disappointed me frankly. Christians and Non alike, I was disgusted with the poor treatment of fellow human beings. And, I think we tend to forget that behind those words on the screen (most of the time anyway...lol) is a HUMAN being with feelings and valid thoughts and beliefs.
Interesting hub. Well put. I have very many Catholic acquaintances who are so very "Catholic" but not so very Christian. Great hub and voted up!
Thanks, Teresa, and Happy New Year! Thank you for the kind words and for signing on to follow. I hope you like what you see.
I just wish that people would take the attitude that you are far more likely to convert someone through your actions than your words. When someone is freezing or starving, giving them a blanket and a meal means a heck of a lot more than quoting scripture.
Take care!
Katharella 11 months ago
:) Good Morning! Oh, hey with all that Christiany banter aside (hehe j/k:) *heart* I totally agree with the treating others as you would want to be treated. One of the many MANY reasons I had to move away from Detroit. :)